May 05, 2009

Is it fair that new graduates don't get hired?

When you're looking for a job, get "fair" out of your head -- it isn't relevant

Dear Bob ...

I'll be graduating with a B.S. degree this spring, and have started to look for my first real job. So far as I can tell, very few companies are hiring, and the ones that are hiring aren't interested in new college graduates ... they all want at least three years of professional experience.

[ Get sage IT career advice from Bob Lewis' Advice Line newsletter. ]

This doesn't seem fair to me -- it's a chicken-and-egg trap, because the only way I can get three years of experience is for some company to hire me.

What do you think?

- Stuck in my shell


Dear Stuck ...

When did you get the idea that "fair" has anything to do with the employment marketplace? It's no more meaningful for you to complain that employers aren't being fair to you than it is for General Motors to complain that car buyers aren't being fair to it. GM either makes cars people want to buy or it doesn't. You either offer services employers want to hire or you don't.

It isn't about you. It's about them and their desire to maximize the value they get from their payroll dollars. And right now, they can get more value because supply exceeds demand.

If you want to convince a potential employer to hire you, you need to think of yourself as a product, with all the dimensions of a product: branding, marketing, pricing, features and functionality ... the works. You're selling the product called you, and in sales it's all about benefit to the buyer, not fairness to the seller.

And now, a word of unsolicited advice:

In my experience, college graduates tend to think of larger companies when they look for work. In strong economic times, that's probably a good strategy.

Right now it's for the birds.

My best guess is that for new graduates, small companies are your best bet. You can often interview directly with the owner and talk about your willingness to work hard, for not all that much so that you can gain real-world experience. You can talk about what you've learned in the classroom (computer programming, for example) and how it can make you a jack-of-all-trades -- unimportant in large enterprises but essential in small firms.

Whatever you talk about, remember that it's all about how you'll provide much more value to your employer than you'll receive in compensation.

One more thing: Right now, you'll need a lot of persistence because even with the best strategy your or I can imagine, the employment marketplace is destroying three jobs for every two it's creating.

Good luck.

- Bob

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jonathanbrickman0000 6-May-09 4:10am
Ah, but in our industry, it is not a chicken-and-egg trap: it is a put-up-or-shut-up trap. Your favorite jobs want 3 years of real experience? Very well. Get three years of real experience. Real volunteer experience working hard running IT for a non-profit, or real experience building an open-source project or a web service of some sort, or both. Do you think I would hire someone who had never written a line of code for the real world as a professional programmer? I hope you don't think I'm so foolish! But would I hire someone with a real project on their resume, a small but unique utility I would find useful and reliable when I tried it after the initial interview? Definitely. It is up to you.
gingerb 6-May-09 9:52am
I think this is a variant of the "grass is greener" complaint. Senior people have their own job hunting issues which include things like being disqualified for too much experience in the wrong technologies and have a current salary that's beyond what employers were looking to pay. Looking for a job is hard. You have to accept that. Although you may have gone through school expecting to have $65K fall into your lap with no effort at graduation, that was just a dream! Employers are hiring. Three jobs may be un-created, but two are being created -- and those employers probably don't want to pay top dollar! Don't let yourself be put off by the newspapers. You have an advantage in that you can be hired at an entry level salary. Many organizations may want experienced staff but often they have entry-level budgets. Things are difficult all around but that's not a reason to be resentful. Things are not going to stay slow forever and you have many years to gain.
tgroleau 6-May-09 10:11am
As a college teacher I see this all the time. Many students think they are the center of the universe and nothing in life has really challenged that view. Therefore they think they can just pass all their classes and a great job will jump into their lap. We get many requests for interns from local companies (big and small) but have a hard time getting students to take them because A) they pay too little (or nothing) or B)they interfere with activites and fun. Gaining practical experience isn't high on their priority list. With graduation coming and jobs scarce, reality is hitting some of them pretty hard.
bytes2go 6-May-09 10:20am
Most higher learning institutions have a co-op program or internships available. Students really need to learn to take advantage of anything that can be used to make them stand out from the crowd... or pay the price this young man is now paying... If they take a co-op job or internship, they will have practical real-world experience to put them at an advantage come graduation time and begin looking for permanent full-time positions... I went from being a co-op to a full time employee without really changing jobs when I graduated due to this... And the job was at GE ! , although I was laid off after 11 years, it was a great first job...
PhotoHand 6-May-09 10:27am
Job guarantee and higher salary that come with a college degree is a middle class myth that should have died last century. You can't afford this sense of self-entitlement in the global economy.
markr 6-May-09 10:38am
The hiring process really boils down to the personal bias of those doing the hiring, and the current state of the job market. As a 25 year IT veteran, with no college or formal training, I have been passed over countless times for folks just out of school. Now, that may be due to an erroeous conclusion by those doing the hiring that a person just out of school might expect less salary than I. However in my experiences, those who have been to college want to hire those who have been to college. A sort of continuation of the fraternity or brotherhood or club mindset. Experience always trumps school, but in better times those 'fraternity' prone folks can afford to overlook the lack of experience and hire someone less capable. The market is not in that mode currently. Thus Stuck is having difficulty. It will come around again in favor of Stuck.
b0b 6-May-09 10:42am
I was in the same situation stuck was in 4 years ago now. There's something to be realized here and most folks have already said it, walking out of college and asking for 50K+ isn't a reality, it happens but its not likely. I took low paying jobs to get some real world experience under my belt, sure the pay sucked, but it wasn't the pay I was after, it was the real world experience I was after and that's what I was able to put on my resume, and now that is what companies hire me for and they pay well for it too. My advice to you is accept reality for what it is, we're in a seller's market right now so you may get a lower salary than you expected but, it'll give you what you need for your resume.
Lee7 6-May-09 11:02am
Bob - thank you for reality check. These days life is full of unfairness (is it fair that newspapers are closing? that so many people are losing there homes, etc.) You gave excellent advice about working with small companies. Another might be to talk to IT staffing agency, and get a reality check on how a company like that would try to place a college grad - often college grads have an over inflated view of their skills. And many companies use staffing agencies as a 'try before you buy' for hiring regular employees - especially these days.
philosopher 6-May-09 11:08am
About 36 years ago, back in 1973, the engineering employment market was very poor. Not as bad as today, and not across the board. But for my intended area of interest, it was all but dried up. I selected the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) specifically because its EE program required co-op experience. That extended a 4-year program into 5 years: 4 years worth of school and 1 full year worth of co-op employment. I figured that because co-op was mandatory, the school would have a good and active relationship with employers. And it worked out well. Co-op interviews were easier than full-time because nobody expected experience. Five years later, interviewing was easy because of the experience gained from co-op. Of course, things are somewhat different now. When I graduated, the EE market was starting to open up. So there was the luck of timing to help with my choice of RIT. And, at least back then, co-op was a paid endeavor. Not the unpaid interships that seem to prevail today. And even though it was probably half of what my non-co-op friends earned over the summer as union electricians and such, it was enough to rent an apartment, pay for car and gas, and eat, and save enough to put a decent dent in tuition. So my point isn't to repeat my experience and you'll be OK, because times are very different. But, if you have the chance to stack the odds in your favor, do it! And a school that offers required co-op to graduate is one way to do it.
dowdp 6-May-09 11:39am
Stuck, Bob's suggestions were very good. I'd add that you should spend as much time as possible this summer after you graduate creating a 'real-world' solution to a problem . . . any problem. If you are into software, create a web site. http://www.squidoo.com is a great place to go to set up a free web site or blog. Or set up a database data entry and inquiry system that reports on your DVD collection, movie reviews . . . or anything else. If you are into hardware, set up a simple LAN in your home with a cheap server, router etc. If you are into hardware design, use one of the free CAD programs to design a new circuit board for a computer or a phone. My point is that if you show the potential employer that you have taken the initiative on your own to kick-start your career and are already creating business solutions (as simple as they might be), you will stand out head-and-shoulders above the run-of-the-mill new graduate that has produced nothing of even potential commercial value as yet. You will be much more in the league of those that have 3 years experience. ============================================================ Since you will be presenting yourself as a professional, look the part. Go to a web site like http://www.vistaprint.com and order some stationery and business cards which include your email address and web site. It is quite inexpensive and adds to your professional credibility. Hope this helps. Patrick
stricky 6-May-09 12:01pm
1 reply
fairness is a myth perpetrated by parents from the time of birth. your situation has nothing to do with being fair. I can tell you what would be unfair, would be clearing out employees with experience to make room for people with less experience willing to work for less money. you are not entitled to the job of your choice at a wage to your liking. if you find one, then you are fortunate and should consider yourself as such. otherwise, you have to do what the rest of us do, which is do what we must do to survive. good luck!
cornstoves 6-May-09 4:09pm
Work three years and wonder why new graduates hire in at higher salary than those with experience. Switch jobs to catch up on salary and find your boss is a two yr graduate. Work for forty years with a technical BS only to read the latest stats: "$95K/yr avg HS graduate salary. $80K/yr avg BS graduate salary" Apply for graduate school to find only foreign students get selected with a QPA a full point less than yours. Get sick and find all doctors are foreign. Take perscription medicine and find mom's cure is best. Work till forty and find they want you to retire to give young fowlkes a chance. Check out the 401K and find taxes will get half of it. Check the 401K into a "plan" to find stocks drop to half value and Uncle Sam still gets 50% of all you use. The only sure thing is Taxes (income, sales, property, business, use, inventory, education, transportation, death) The final death tax will take all accumulations, assets, debts, experience, education, salary, retirements, loved ones. Life isn't fair. Death is.
bills 6-May-09 12:13pm
Bob, great response. What a spoiled, whiny brat. "Fair" is something that's taught by socialist college professors. The real world's a tough place. "Stuck" will have to plant their butt in line behind everyone else who's looking for work and get rid of the "I'm God's gift to the world" mindset. This kind of attitude has been fostered by a generation of coddling and "self-esteem" training. My advice to "Stuck": grow up.
zanzan42 6-May-09 3:57pm
Everything relevant has pretty much already been said, but I wanted to add this: I hope Stuck isn't one of those poor deluded fools who saddled themselves with $100k+ in student loans, assuming they can land a $75k+ job right out of school and get the loans paid off. If so, he really *is* stuck. I would say I feel sorry for him, but, frankly, I don't. Suck it up and make yourself valuable to an employer.
rdhalste 6-May-09 11:51pm
It's been said many times, but it bears repeating...Life isn't fair and it never has been. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is networking and I don't mean the IT kind, but rather social networking. Take advantage of every route to get experience, noticed, AND *recognized*. Learn what individual companies like, what they like to see even down to the way you dress. As to the professors, I never did meet one who said to expect life to be fair. That and it only comes with one guarantee. That guarantee? You won't get out of it alive. When I graduated (at age 50) jobs were virtually nil and age 50 is not a good age to be looking for CS jobs so I started on my Masters in CS on a full ride as a GA. (THAT also looks good on a resume) OTOH I was the mythical fresh college graduate with over 26 years of experience. Half way though my first term I was called and offered a job. I said I will before asking how much? If you want frustrating try having demonstrated the skills but not having the formal education (IE education discrimination)...At my previous job I had the skills but no formal education. I specialized in chromatography. Corporate had even recommended me for a specific job as I had saved the company hundreds of thousands of dollars, but the managers at out site told me, "not a chance as that position required a degree." Research used my hand calculations to teach calibration techniques. There was a meeting to study future needs and corporate suggested I be put in charge of coordination of future implementations. The first question I was asked was "what is your formal education in this field?" As soon as they found I had none, they moved on to something else and ignored me as if I was no longer at the meeting. That was the day I turned in my resignation to go back to college full time after more than 26 years. Four and an half years later I was working it from the corporate end. I think they were afraid corporate would send me out to that site to get even as I was farther up the food chain than most who had been above me before I went back to college.<:-)) BTW I moved up to project manager in less than 4 years. IOW take advantage of all opportunities to make yourself a desired asset to that particular company.
exBmer 9-May-09 4:14pm
Attend a recruiting event at your university. IBM replaces talented experienced folks every year with children like you.
mr_smooth1958 13-May-09 12:40pm
Stuck, they may not be your employer of choice, but the federal government is hiring, and hiring at the entry level. Check out www.usajobs.gov and see what's there. Also, you don't sound whiny to me. Everybody goes through the "how do I get experience if no one will hire me" phase, right up to the point when they get that first job. I had a professor who used to say, "there's a time for theory and learning, and a time to do." You've got a lot of good ideas here. Go forth and do.

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